Cannot get low latency with USB audio gear

[Steven Minzer]

I am having difficulty figuring out the best way for me to setup my gear for playing in jamkazam sessions.

I have an acoustic piano, an old Sony Vaio PC and a newly-purchased Behringer XENYX Q802USB. I have been using Jamkazam predominantly to rehearse with an acoustic bass player who lives not far from me. My observations in this posting are based on Jamkazam sessions with the bass player, though I aspire to play with others at greater distances as well. The bass player has been exclusively using Realtek WMD so far, though he too has recently acquired a Behringer audio interface and may be confronted with similar issues.

I have been considering the following options, which I will discuss below.

• Realtek WMD
  
• WMD USB Audio
  
• ASIO4ALL 
  
• Reaper  ASIO
  
• Native driver
  

(1) Realtek WMD

I first tried the Realtek WMD after initially installing Jamkazam, before purchasing the Behringer, using my PC mic to pick up audio. My latency was low, around 5-6 ms., and my jitter was generally acceptable. Jamkazam’s only “complaint” was that I was using  WMD, not ASIO.  Nonetheless, I bought the Behringer hoping to be able to use a better microphone while retaining low latency, so far without success.

(2) WMD USB Audio

While Behringer recommends using ASIO4ALL for its Q802USB,  many Jamkazam users have noted problems with it, so I tried using the Windows WMD USB Audio driver first. Latency increased  to 20ms, making it difficult to play together. There was a tendency for our tempo to slow down during a tune , so I decided to go back to using Realtek for rehearsals.

(3) ASIO4ALL 

Deciding to check out  ASIO4ALL for myself, I discovered that I could not successfully use the smaller frame sizes (around 2.5 ms.), needing to set my frame size to 10 ms, to get intelligible audio. This resulted  in 31 ms. latency. Inexplicably it seemed easier for us to play together when I used ASIO4ALL than WMD USB Audio. If I retry WMW USB again, would we still have problems playing together?

(4) Reaper ASIO (Rearoute ASIO)

After reading an excellent Jamkazam forum posting by marhdeth ( https://forum.jamkazam.com/printthread.php?tid=537 ) ,  I followed the recommendation, trying the Reaper DAW. Using a 2.5 ms frame size, I brought latency down in the jamkazam test to 5-6 ms. However I was not able to successfully add this gear configuration to my audio profile, failing the I/O rate and variance test. In a response to the marhdeth posting, Nick Blair reported having the same problem, and the thread does not posit a solution.

Nonetheless, this result was  encouraging since I finally obtained low latency for a setup using a superior microphone connected to the Behringer. But it leaves the question of what to do about the I/O test problem.

It seems that my PC may be the culprit. I have observed that the processor utilization percentage reported by Jamkazam for my VAIO using Rearoute ASIO are considerably higher than those for the bass player using Realtek. His PC is newer than mine. 

The CPU of my PC is an Intel® Core™2 Duo CPU T6600 @ 2.20GHz. It has 4.0 GB DDR2 memory, with Task Manager showing 2.1G, 55%, in memory utilization without Jamkazam or Reaper running.

Is there something that I can do with my PC to pass the test? Or must I invest in a new one for the sake of Jamkazam? Obviously, I don’t want to lay out a lot of cash and then discover the purchase does not solve the problem or was unnecessary for addressing it.

(5) Native Driver

Some USB audio interface devices use an ASIO driver recommended by their manufacturer. There are suggestions on the Internet that a driver designed for a different product can be substituted for ASIO4ALL. I tried one such suggestion recommending a Behringer ASIO driver and it did not work for me. I do not think I will try something like this again without first getting approval from someone affiliated with Behringer.

Suggestions from anyone knowing how to best deal with my situation would be appreciated.

[StuartR]

I am having difficulty figuring out the best way for me to setup my gear for playing in jamkazam sessions.

I have an acoustic piano, an old Sony Vaio PC and a newly-purchased Behringer XENYX Q802USB. I have been using Jamkazam predominantly to rehearse with an acoustic bass player who lives not far from me. My observations in this posting are based on Jamkazam sessions with the bass player, though I aspire to play with others at greater distances as well. The bass player has been exclusively using Realtek WMD so far, though he too has recently acquired a Behringer audio interface and may be confronted with similar issues.

I have been considering the following options, which I will discuss below.

• Realtek WMD
  
• WMD USB Audio
  
• ASIO4ALL 
  
• Reaper  ASIO
  
• Native driver
  

(1) Realtek WMD

I first tried the Realtek WMD after initially installing Jamkazam, before purchasing the Behringer, using my PC mic to pick up audio. My latency was low, around 5-6 ms., and my jitter was generally acceptable. Jamkazam’s only “complaint” was that I was using  WMD, not ASIO.  Nonetheless, I bought the Behringer hoping to be able to use a better microphone while retaining low latency, so far without success.

(2) WMD USB Audio

While Behringer recommends using ASIO4ALL for its Q802USB,  many Jamkazam users have noted problems with it, so I tried using the Windows WMD USB Audio driver first. Latency increased  to 20ms, making it difficult to play together. There was a tendency for our tempo to slow down during a tune , so I decided to go back to using Realtek for rehearsals.

(3) ASIO4ALL 

Deciding to check out  ASIO4ALL for myself, I discovered that I could not successfully use the smaller frame sizes (around 2.5 ms.), needing to set my frame size to 10 ms, to get intelligible audio. This resulted  in 31 ms. latency. Inexplicably it seemed easier for us to play together when I used ASIO4ALL than WMD USB Audio. If I retry WMW USB again, would we still have problems playing together?

(4) Reaper ASIO (Rearoute ASIO)

After reading an excellent Jamkazam forum posting by marhdeth ( https://forum.jamkazam.com/printthread.php?tid=537 ) ,  I followed the recommendation, trying the Reaper DAW. Using a 2.5 ms frame size, I brought latency down in the jamkazam test to 5-6 ms. However I was not able to successfully add this gear configuration to my audio profile, failing the I/O rate and variance test. In a response to the marhdeth posting, Nick Blair reported having the same problem, and the thread does not posit a solution.

Nonetheless, this result was  encouraging since I finally obtained low latency for a setup using a superior microphone connected to the Behringer. But it leaves the question of what to do about the I/O test problem.

It seems that my PC may be the culprit. I have observed that the processor utilization percentage reported by Jamkazam for my VAIO using Rearoute ASIO are considerably higher than those for the bass player using Realtek. His PC is newer than mine. 

The CPU of my PC is an Intel® Core™2 Duo CPU T6600 @ 2.20GHz. It has 4.0 GB DDR2 memory, with Task Manager showing 2.1G, 55%, in memory utilization without Jamkazam or Reaper running.

Is there something that I can do with my PC to pass the test? Or must I invest in a new one for the sake of Jamkazam? Obviously, I don’t want to lay out a lot of cash and then discover the purchase does not solve the problem or was unnecessary for addressing it.

(5) Native Driver

Some USB audio interface devices use an ASIO driver recommended by their manufacturer. There are suggestions on the Internet that a driver designed for a different product can be substituted for ASIO4ALL. I tried one such suggestion recommending a Behringer ASIO driver and it did not work for me. I do not think I will try something like this again without first getting approval from someone affiliated with Behringer.

Suggestions from anyone knowing how to best deal with my situation would be appreciated.

Download and run LatencyMon on the PC you're using for JK. Post the results here. Have you followed the recommended PC tuning to get your PC optimized for real-time audio streaming?

https://www.resplendence.com/download/LatencyMon.exe

https://www.dropbox.com/s/der23us3icbbkn...e.pdf?dl=1

[Steven Minzer]

Thanks, StuartR. I ran LatancyMon, but could not paste a screenshot in a New Reply, my post attempt failing due to an excessive message length error (Is there a link to a tutorial on using forums for meeting. I am entering the red text portion from the screenshot.
——
Your system appears to be having trouble handling real-time audio and other tasks. You are likely to experience buffer underruns appearing as drop outs, clicks or pops. One or more DFC routines that belong to a driver running in your system appear to be executing for too long. At least one detected problem appears to be network related. In case you are using a W-LAN adapter, try disabling it to get better results. One problem may be related to power management, disable CPU throttling settings in Control Panel and BIOS setup. Check for BIOS updates.
———
I read the first three chapters of Glitch Free, the audio and computer for dummies overview. The section comparing the processor to a chef made me sad, since I haven’t gone out to eat for some time. Chapter 4 starts getting into the nuts and bolts of tuning. while I have come across tuning suggestions here and there, it’s good to have a comprehensive treatment of the subject and I will be working my way through it.

I am sorry that I am not able to share more results from LatencyMon, but wanted to send this quick reply out.

Thanks for your help.

[StuartR]

Thanks, StuartR. I ran LatancyMon, but could not  paste a screenshot in a New Reply, my post attempt failing due to an excessive message length error (Is there a link to a tutorial on using forums for meeting. I am entering the red text portion from the screenshot.
——
Your system appears to be having trouble handling real-time audio and other tasks. You are likely to experience buffer underruns appearing as drop outs, clicks or pops. One or more DFC routines that belong to a driver running in your system appear to be executing for too long.  At least one detected problem appears to be network related. In case you are using a W-LAN adapter, try disabling it to get better results. One problem may be related to power management, disable CPU throttling settings in Control Panel and BIOS setup. Check for BIOS updates.
———
I read the first three chapters of Glitch Free, the audio and computer for dummies overview. The section comparing the processor to a chef made me sad, since I haven’t gone out to eat for some time. Chapter 4 starts getting into the nuts and bolts of tuning. while I have come across tuning suggestions here and there, it’s good to have a comprehensive treatment of the subject and I will be working my way through it.

I am sorry that I am not able to share more results from LatencyMon, but wanted to send this quick reply out.

Thanks for your help.

The fact that the text in the report is in red indicates your PC, in its current state, isn't capable of handling real-time audio. Please post the text report. Don't use a quoted reply so as not to include all your previous text which is where the posting error is coming from.

Some initial things you'll need to do:

1) Change your PC power plan to maximum.
2) Disable WiFi and Bluetooth
3) Be sure your PC or laptop, is running on AC power... never on battery.
4) Disable Background apps.
5) Go to ADD/REMOVE programs and uninstall anything you don't need. Since you've had this PC a while I'd guess it's loaded with unnecessary apps, secondary antivirus tools,etc. Clean all this out.
6) Go to the vendor (Sony) site and be sure the latest BIOS and drivers are installed.

You never said what version of Windows you are running?

Then rerun LatencyMon (for at least 5 minutes) and compare the results.

[Steven Minzer]

Thanks, StuartR. I ran LatancyMon, but could not  paste a screenshot in a New Reply, my post attempt failing due to an excessive message length error (Is there a link to a tutorial on using forums for meeting. I am entering the red text portion from the screenshot.
——
Your system appears to be having trouble handling real-time audio and other tasks. You are likely to experience buffer underruns appearing as drop outs, clicks or pops. One or more DFC routines that belong to a driver running in your system appear to be executing for too long.  At least one detected problem appears to be network related. In case you are using a W-LAN adapter, try disabling it to get better results. One problem may be related to power management, disable CPU throttling settings in Control Panel and BIOS setup. Check for BIOS updates.
———
I read the first three chapters of Glitch Free, the audio and computer for dummies overview. The section comparing the processor to a chef made me sad, since I haven’t gone out to eat for some time. Chapter 4 starts getting into the nuts and bolts of tuning. while I have come across tuning suggestions here and there, it’s good to have a comprehensive treatment of the subject and I will be working my way through it.

I am sorry that I am not able to share more results from LatencyMon, but wanted to send this quick reply out.

Thanks for your help.

The fact that the text in the report is in red indicates your PC, in its current state, isn't capable of handling real-time audio. Please post the text report. Don't use a quoted reply so as not to include all your previous text which is where the posting error is coming from.

Some initial things you'll need to do:

1) Change your PC power plan to maximum.
2)  Disable WiFi and Bluetooth
3) Be sure your PC or laptop, is running on AC power... never on battery.
4) Disable Background apps.
5) Go to ADD/REMOVE programs and uninstall anything you don't need. Since you've had this PC a while I'd guess it's loaded with unnecessary apps, secondary antivirus tools,etc. Clean all this out.
6) Go to the vendor (Sony) site and be sure the latest BIOS and drivers are installed.

You never said what version of Windows you are running?

Then rerun LatencyMon (for at least 5 minutes) and compare the results.

My OS is windows 10 home. I read through Glitch Free, making many changes suggested. I followed the suggestion in the list from StuartR, updating Windows, but I decided not to do a BIOS update yet, as recommended in Glitch Free.
I finally was able to add gear successfully for Reaper/Asio4all (Rearoute) to my profile. Jamkazam complains about it, especially when I create a solo session with frame size settings  under 10 ms, the input and output jitter spiking. 
Running LatencyMon, the red text in  reports have disappeared. But I don’t know what to do with the results. It runs now for about 3 minutes in a suitable for audio state before noting possible problems for audio. I am pasting the LatencyMon report text below.


_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
CONCLUSION
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Your system seems to be having difficulty handling real-time audio and other tasks. You may experience drop outs, clicks or pops due to buffer underruns. One or more DPC routines that belong to a driver running in your system appear to be executing for too long. One problem may be related to power management, disable CPU throttling settings in Control Panel and BIOS setup. Check for BIOS updates. 
LatencyMon has been analyzing your system for  0:07:07  (h:mms) on all processors.


_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
SYSTEM INFORMATION
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Computer name:                                        BARBARA-VAIO
OS version:                                           Windows 10 , 10.0, build: 19041 (x64)
Hardware:                                             VGN-NW320F, Sony Corporation, VAIO
CPU:                                                  GenuineIntel Intel® Core™2 Duo CPU T6600 @ 2.20GHz
Logical processors:                                   2
Processor groups:                                     1
RAM:                                                  3935 MB total


_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
CPU SPEED
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Reported CPU speed:                                   2193 MHz

Note: reported execution times may be calculated based on a fixed reported CPU speed. Disable variable speed settings like Intel Speed Step and AMD Cool N Quiet in the BIOS setup for more accurate results.

WARNING: the CPU speed that was measured is only a fraction of the CPU speed reported. Your CPUs may be throttled back due to variable speed settings and thermal issues. It is suggested that you run a utility which reports your actual CPU frequency and temperature. 



_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
MEASURED INTERRUPT TO USER PROCESS LATENCIES
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
The interrupt to process latency reflects the measured interval that a usermode process needed to respond to a hardware request from the moment the interrupt service routine started execution. This includes the scheduling and execution of a DPC routine, the signaling of an event and the waking up of a usermode thread from an idle wait state in response to that event.

Highest measured interrupt to process latency (µs):   465.70
Average measured interrupt to process latency (µs):   7.106197

Highest measured interrupt to DPC latency (µs):       462.20
Average measured interrupt to DPC latency (µs):       2.356204


_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
 REPORTED ISRs
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Interrupt service routines are routines installed by the OS and device drivers that execute in response to a hardware interrupt signal.

Highest ISR routine execution time (µs):              42.409941
Driver with highest ISR routine execution time:       USBPORT.SYS - USB 1.1 & 2.0 Port Driver, Microsoft Corporation

Highest reported total ISR routine time (%):          0.003455
Driver with highest ISR total time:                   iaStor.sys - Intel Matrix Storage Manager driver - x64, Intel Corporation

Total time spent in ISRs (%)                          0.008773

ISR count (execution time <250 µs):                   11827
ISR count (execution time 250-500 µs):                0
ISR count (execution time 500-999 µs):                0
ISR count (execution time 1000-1999 µs):              0
ISR count (execution time 2000-3999 µs):              0
ISR count (execution time >=4000 µs):                 0


_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
REPORTED DPCs
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
DPC routines are part of the interrupt servicing dispatch mechanism and disable the possibility for a process to utilize the CPU while it is interrupted until the DPC has finished execution.

Highest DPC routine execution time (µs):              1348.676243
Driver with highest DPC routine execution time:       ACPI.sys - ACPI Driver for NT, Microsoft Corporation

Highest reported total DPC routine time (%):          0.024348
Driver with highest DPC total execution time:         ntoskrnl.exe - NT Kernel & System, Microsoft Corporation

Total time spent in DPCs (%)                          0.080587

DPC count (execution time <250 µs):                   115324
DPC count (execution time 250-500 µs):                0
DPC count (execution time 500-999 µs):                21
DPC count (execution time 1000-1999 µs):              5
DPC count (execution time 2000-3999 µs):              0
DPC count (execution time >=4000 µs):                 0


_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
 REPORTED HARD PAGEFAULTS
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Hard pagefaults are events that get triggered by making use of virtual memory that is not resident in RAM but backed by a memory mapped file on disk. The process of resolving the hard pagefault requires reading in the memory from disk while the process is interrupted and blocked from execution.

NOTE: some processes were hit by hard pagefaults. If these were programs producing audio, they are likely to interrupt the audio stream resulting in dropouts, clicks and pops. Check the Processes tab to see which programs were hit.

Process with highest pagefault count:                 nortonsecurity.exe

Total number of hard pagefaults                       216
Hard pagefault count of hardest hit process:          64
Number of processes hit:                              14


_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
 PER CPU DATA
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
CPU 0 Interrupt cycle time (s):                       1.789006
CPU 0 ISR highest execution time (µs):                42.409941
CPU 0 ISR total execution time (s):                   0.074250
CPU 0 ISR count:                                      11248
CPU 0 DPC highest execution time (µs):                1348.676243
CPU 0 DPC total execution time (s):                   0.418216
CPU 0 DPC count:                                      89551
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
CPU 1 Interrupt cycle time (s):                       1.221662
CPU 1 ISR highest execution time (µs):                17.385317
CPU 1 ISR total execution time (s):                   0.000774
CPU 1 ISR count:                                      579
CPU 1 DPC highest execution time (µs):                505.764250
CPU 1 DPC total execution time (s):                   0.270982
CPU 1 DPC count:                                      25799
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I am  surprised that Norton was the hard page fault culprit. I disabled it for this run.

[Steven Minzer]

On p. 66 of Glitch Free, it says:

ACPI.sys will often show slow DPC latency times on battery powered machines. Do not disable the ACPI driver nor the Microsoft ACPI-Compliant System device. Rather, disable the “ACPI compliant battery” or “Microsoft ACPI-Compliant Control Method Battery” device. Unfortunately you’ll lose you battery icon and some power management settings.

I discovered a free update of an “ACPI compliant control method battery driver” on a web page. Should I install it? The PC is plugged into AC power. Would it be better to Just take the Glitch Free recommendation to disable battery?

[StuartR]

On p. 66 of Glitch Free, it says:

ACPI.sys will often show slow DPC latency times on battery powered machines. Do not disable the ACPI driver nor the Microsoft ACPI-Compliant System device. Rather, disable the “ACPI compliant battery” or “Microsoft ACPI-Compliant Control Method Battery” device. Unfortunately you’ll lose you battery icon and some power management settings.

I discovered a free update of an “ACPI compliant control method battery driver” on a web page. Should I install it? The PC is plugged into AC power.  Would it be better to Just take the Glitch Free recommendation to disable battery?

I wouldn't install any non-vendor supplied updates. I'd advise that you DO now update the BIOS from the vendor site. If LatencyMon still shows high ACPI DPC times then disable the ACPI battery driver (which is want I had to eventually do). Let us know how it goes... You'll get there.

[Steven Minzer]

Thanks again, StuartR.
I have been trying to find the Bios Update on the Sony site for my Vaio without any luck. I phoned Sony support and spoke to someone who told me that Vaio Care only dealt with software problems and that Best Buy (yes!) dealt with hardware and BIOs. It is impossible to talk to anyone at Best Buy without an appointment. I don’t know who might at Best BUY provide the BIos info to me there.They don’t even sell SonyvPCs anymore.

Anyway, I am providing relevant information here about my PC and Bios.
From the Vaio Control Center/System Information page:
Model Name: VGN-NW320F
BIOS Version: R2010Y4
OS Version: Windows 10 Home (64-bit version)
Note that the original OS was Window 7 Home.

The model on the tag on the back of the PC is PCG-7192L, which I found useless for searching.
I got hits for the VGN model name, but nothing related to BIOS downloads and updates.

If anyone knows where I can find the BIOS stuff, I will give it a try. But I am pretty much resolved to the fact that the time has come to buy a new laptop. Of course it needs Ethernet and USB 3 is a good idea, though my USB device is USB 2. Any other suggestions? Any views on Mac vs PC? I’ve always had PCs, but I spend most of my time on my iphone and iPad.

Although a frustrating experience, I have learned a great deal about what to do with the new computer when I get it.

I still have not resolved many questions on what to do about Asio4all, a DAW (Reaper) and optimization of audio settings.
I may also consider getting a different USB device in the future, though I am grateful for finding the XENYX when Idid.
Again, any opinions on the way to go will be appreciated.

[StuartR]

Thanks again, StuartR.
I have been trying to find the Bios Update on the Sony site  for my Vaio without any luck. I phoned Sony support and spoke to someone who told me that Vaio Care  only dealt with software problems and that Best Buy (yes!) dealt with hardware and BIOs. It is impossible to talk to anyone at Best Buy without an appointment. I don’t know who might at Best BUY  provide the BIos info to me there.They don’t even sell SonyvPCs anymore.

Anyway, I am providing relevant information here about my PC and Bios.
From the Vaio Control Center/System Information page:
Model Name: VGN-NW320F
BIOS Version: R2010Y4
OS Version: Windows 10 Home (64-bit version)
Note that the original OS was Window 7 Home.

The model on the tag on the back of the PC is PCG-7192L, which I found useless for searching.
I got hits for the VGN model name, but nothing related to BIOS downloads and updates.

If anyone knows where I can find the BIOS stuff, I will give it a try. But I am pretty much resolved to the fact that the time has come to buy a new laptop. Of course it needs Ethernet and USB 3 is a good idea, though my USB device is USB 2. Any other suggestions? Any views on Mac vs PC?  I’ve always had PCs, but I spend most of my time on my iphone and iPad.

Although a frustrating experience,  I have learned a great deal about what to do with the new computer when I get it.

I still  have not resolved many questions  on what to do about Asio4all, a DAW (Reaper) and optimization of  audio settings.
I may also consider getting a different USB device in the future, though I am grateful for finding the XENYX  when Idid.
Again, any opinions on the way to go will be appreciated.

I took a quick look at the vendor site and didn't see any BIOS updates either. All the updates are for Windows 7 which tells us that laptop has seen better days. If you can afford a new one, go for it.

[Ozy]

Thanks again, StuartR.
I have been trying to find the Bios Update on the Sony site  for my Vaio without any luck. I phoned Sony support and spoke to someone who told me that Vaio Care  only dealt with software problems and that Best Buy (yes!) dealt with hardware and BIOs. It is impossible to talk to anyone at Best Buy without an appointment. I don’t know who might at Best BUY  provide the BIos info to me there.They don’t even sell SonyvPCs anymore.

Anyway, I am providing relevant information here about my PC and Bios.
From the Vaio Control Center/System Information page:
Model Name: VGN-NW320F
BIOS Version: R2010Y4
OS Version: Windows 10 Home (64-bit version)
Note that the original OS was Window 7 Home.

The model on the tag on the back of the PC is PCG-7192L, which I found useless for searching.
I got hits for the VGN model name, but nothing related to BIOS downloads and updates.

If anyone knows where I can find the BIOS stuff, I will give it a try. But I am pretty much resolved to the fact that the time has come to buy a new laptop. Of course it needs Ethernet and USB 3 is a good idea, though my USB device is USB 2. Any other suggestions? Any views on Mac vs PC?  I’ve always had PCs, but I spend most of my time on my iphone and iPad.

Although a frustrating experience,  I have learned a great deal about what to do with the new computer when I get it.

I still  have not resolved many questions  on what to do about Asio4all, a DAW (Reaper) and optimization of  audio settings.
I may also consider getting a different USB device in the future, though I am grateful for finding the XENYX  when Idid.
Again, any opinions on the way to go will be appreciated.

I took a quick look at the vendor site and didn't see any BIOS updates either. All the updates are for Windows 7 which tells us that laptop has seen better days. If you can afford a new one, go for it.

---

Did you change the Buffer settings to the lowest possible setting for your interface within the desktop app when using ASIO?