LATENCY, mostly TOTAL LATENCY

[jazzerone]

I'm a novice to UDP, as described here by Dimitri, but have a basic understanding of the difference between UDP and TCP, and how peer-to-peer works. So, my question is this: With 3 players on board, does it matter who initiates the session, or are each of the participants on equal status, so to speak?

I have a 200mbps wired internet connection, with about 8ms latency on my AI. I have regular session with a local player and one in California (1500 miles away). I always initiate the session and invite the others to join. The other local player has no latency issues with the California player. His internet speed is 300mbps, with about the same latency as I have. He experiences virtually no latency issues with the California player; I, on the other hand, see about 45ms total latency and experience the same, which puts us slightly off --- still playable, but noticeable. Yesterday I had a session with 2 California players, and it was nearly impossible. Again, I initiated the session, invited them to join, and they had no issues with each other.

I understand that the distance from me to them, and their proximity to each other comes into play here, but I'm trying to figure out why my local friend doesn't experience this problem with the California player, while I do. We use the same ISP, and live about 15 miles apart. We're running comparable audio interface gear, both on MAC platforms. So, back to my original question: In a UDP setup, does it matter who initiates the session?

Thanks for any insights.

I don't think it matters who initiates a session. Have you verified that your home router isn't congested while you're in a JK session? If it's being used for video streaming or game play for example, your time-critical UDP packets aren't going to make it in and out in a timely manner. Check your routers ability to handle this at dslreports/speedtest.

Also, if you're using MAC gear, be sure you use an audio interface that supports Thunderbolt 3 and has a custom driver for that. Otherwise you'll have you use the MacOS Core Audio subsystem which isn't optimal and may not give you the lowest hardware latency your audio interface is capable of delivering.

Thanks for the feedback. I ran the DSLReports/Speed test and got all A's/A+'s, so I think my router is fine. It's possible there is some cell phone or other usage going on in the house while I'm in a session, but there's only 2 of us here and it would be limited (not like having 4 teenagers, for example). Your suggestion about the AI is interesting. I'm using an older iMac that doesn't have a Thunderbolt port; my AI is a Presonus Firewire Project connected to the computer via Firewire --- none of this matches up with your suggestion, so this may be where the problem lies. I'm not having any issues with connectivity or latency on my gear as reported by JK, and playing with local musicians there are minimal, typical, sporadic latency issues, but nothing serious. It's only when I work with players in California, and the curious anomaly of my local partner NOT having this problem. But then, he's using a Focusrite AI, so there you go... looks like more gear experimentation is in order.

Thanks again.

[StuartR]

I'm a novice to UDP, as described here by Dimitri, but have a basic understanding of the difference between UDP and TCP, and how peer-to-peer works. So, my question is this: With 3 players on board, does it matter who initiates the session, or are each of the participants on equal status, so to speak?

I have a 200mbps wired internet connection, with about 8ms latency on my AI. I have regular session with a local player and one in California (1500 miles away). I always initiate the session and invite the others to join. The other local player has no latency issues with the California player. His internet speed is 300mbps, with about the same latency as I have. He experiences virtually no latency issues with the California player; I, on the other hand, see about 45ms total latency and experience the same, which puts us slightly off --- still playable, but noticeable. Yesterday I had a session with 2 California players, and it was nearly impossible. Again, I initiated the session, invited them to join, and they had no issues with each other.

I understand that the distance from me to them, and their proximity to each other comes into play here, but I'm trying to figure out why my local friend doesn't experience this problem with the California player, while I do. We use the same ISP, and live about 15 miles apart. We're running comparable audio interface gear, both on MAC platforms. So, back to my original question: In a UDP setup, does it matter who initiates the session?

Thanks for any insights.

I don't think it matters who initiates a session. Have you verified that your home router isn't congested while you're in a JK session? If it's being used for video streaming or game play for example, your time-critical UDP packets aren't going to make it in and out in a timely manner. Check your routers ability to handle this at dslreports/speedtest.

Also, if you're using MAC gear, be sure you use an audio interface that supports Thunderbolt 3 and has a custom driver for that. Otherwise you'll have you use the MacOS Core Audio subsystem which isn't optimal and may not give you the lowest hardware latency your audio interface is capable of delivering.

Thanks for the feedback. I ran the DSLReports/Speed test and got all A's/A+'s, so I think my router is fine. It's possible there is some cell phone or other usage going on in the house while I'm in a session, but there's only 2 of us here and it would be limited (not like having 4 teenagers, for example). Your suggestion about the AI is interesting. I'm using an older iMac that doesn't have a Thunderbolt port; my AI is a Presonus Firewire Project connected to the computer via Firewire --- none of this matches up with your suggestion, so this may be where the problem lies. I'm not having any issues with connectivity or latency on my gear as reported by JK, and playing with local musicians there are minimal, typical, sporadic latency issues, but nothing serious. It's only when I work with players in California, and the curious anomaly of my local partner NOT having this problem. But then, he's using a Focusrite AI, so there you go... looks like more gear experimentation is in order.

Thanks again.

I'm curious. What make and model Internet router do you have? I'm asking because unless it's one that's specifically optimized to handle real-time audio when it's busy (QoS), most fail the congestion tests.

[jazzerone]

It's your basic Comcast rental unit... most likely I didn't perform the test in the way you're thinking, I just followed the screen prompts. I'm about 99% convinced that this is all a hardware issue, between my AI, the router, my computer, plus all the hardware on the other end.

[StuartR]

It's your basic Comcast rental unit... most likely I didn't perform the test in the way you're thinking, I just followed the screen prompts. I'm about 99% convinced that this is all a hardware issue, between my AI, the router, my computer, plus all the hardware on the other end.

That type of modem/router is almost guaranteed to have bufferbloat (no QoS). Just be sure no one in your household is doing any video streaming or online gaming while you're in a JK session.

[jazzerone]

Thanks, Stuart... your advice should go over really well in the household since I'm doing 3-4 JK sessions a week, mostly in the evenings --- "Guess what, honey? Not only am I going to be in the studio in another JamKazam session, you can't watch tv or use your computer while I'm out there! How about knitting? You could knit me something [runs away]".

Any suggestions on a router that won't get me living in the garage? Thanks again...

[Dimitri Muskens]

Thanks, Stuart... your advice should go over really well in the household since I'm doing 3-4 JK sessions a week, mostly in the evenings --- "Guess what, honey? Not only am I going to be in the studio in another JamKazam session, you can't watch tv or use your computer while I'm out there! How about knitting? You could knit me something [runs away]".

Any suggestions on a router that won't get me living in the garage? Thanks again...

>>>
Another router/modem is hardly gonna do any good when your household is netflixing, gaming a/o up-/downloading at the same time you're trying to do anything with online audio. There will always be 'noise' = jitter = latency.
A 'sneaky' local QoS shaping (and bandwidth pools), giving your UDP traffic priority could help some, but don't expect miracles.
'Having the road to yourself' and disabling/stopping all other network (LAN & inet) use is really the best(only?) key to success where congestion/noise/jitter is in play.

I hear you with the "household" though. A band friend of mine can't even get 2,5h a week for himself to play online - had to stop that collab.

[StuartR]

Thanks, Stuart... your advice should go over really well in the household since I'm doing 3-4 JK sessions a week, mostly in the evenings --- "Guess what, honey? Not only am I going to be in the studio in another JamKazam session, you can't watch tv or use your computer while I'm out there! How about knitting? You could knit me something [runs away]".

Any suggestions on a router that won't get me living in the garage? Thanks again...

>>>
Another router/modem is hardly gonna do any good when your household is netflixing, gaming a/o up-/downloading at the same time you're trying to do anything with online audio. There will always be 'noise' = jitter = latency.
A 'sneaky' local QoS shaping (and bandwidth pools), giving your UDP traffic priority could help some, but don't expect miracles.
'Having the road to yourself' and disabling/stopping all other network (LAN & inet) use is really the best(only?) key to success where congestion/noise/jitter is in play.

I hear you with the "household" though. A band friend of mine can't even get 2,5h a week for himself to play online - had to stop that collab.

I beg to differ. A properly designed router will help greatly. There are several choices that I personally have experience with. The best, IMHO, is IQrouter, designed specifically to help in this regard. It's very affordable and easy to setup to allow the highest priority to your outgoing realtime audio packets. A second option is to use the openWRT router software on your existing router (if it's supported). You can check their site for a list. Thirdly, routers from ASUS have very robust QoS abilities and you can easily assign bandwidth and protocol priorities to specific devices. Also, any Windows PC Jamkazam users can readily create a QoS policy on their machine to mark all outgoing Jamkazam UDP packets as high priority (think VOIP). This will place them ahead of normal incoming traffic in your QoS-enabled router.
So there's a lot you can easily and affordably do.

In your particular case, I'd consider giving them back their rented modem/router and purchasing your own DOCSIS 3.x modem and an IQrouter. Total cost around $200 and will pay for itself in a year or so depending on the rental amount you're currently paying.

[Dimitri Muskens]

Thanks, Stuart... your advice should go over really well in the household since I'm doing 3-4 JK sessions a week, mostly in the evenings --- "Guess what, honey? Not only am I going to be in the studio in another JamKazam session, you can't watch tv or use your computer while I'm out there! How about knitting? You could knit me something [runs away]".

Any suggestions on a router that won't get me living in the garage? Thanks again...

>>>
Another router/modem is hardly gonna do any good when your household is netflixing, gaming a/o up-/downloading at the same time you're trying to do anything with online audio. There will always be 'noise' = jitter = latency.
A 'sneaky' local QoS shaping (and bandwidth pools), giving your UDP traffic priority could help some, but don't expect miracles.
'Having the road to yourself' and disabling/stopping all other network (LAN & inet) use is really the best(only?) key to success where congestion/noise/jitter is in play.

I hear you with the "household" though. A band friend of mine can't even get 2,5h a week for himself to play online - had to stop that collab.

I beg to differ. A properly designed router will help greatly. There are several choices that I personally have experience with. The best, IMHO, is IQrouter, designed specifically to help in this regard. It's very affordable and easy to setup to allow the highest priority to your outgoing realtime audio packets. A second option is to use the openWRT router software on your existing router (if it's supported). You can check their site for a list. Thirdly, routers from ASUS have very robust QoS abilities and you can easily assign bandwidth and protocol priorities to specific devices. Also, any Windows PC Jamkazam users can readily create a QoS policy on their machine to mark all outgoing Jamkazam UDP packets as high priority (think VOIP). This will place them ahead of normal incoming traffic in your QoS-enabled router.
So there's a lot you can easily and affordably do.

In your particular case, I'd consider giving them back their rented modem/router and purchasing your own DOCSIS 3.x modem and an IQrouter. Total cost around $200 and will pay for itself in a year or so depending on the rental amount you're currently paying.

>>>
No problem Stuart. We don't have to agree on everything. (or anything really ;-))
Pls do consider the "... when ..." part in my first sentence. (nothing 'technical' will 'solve' that)
D./

[StuartR]

Thanks, Stuart... your advice should go over really well in the household since I'm doing 3-4 JK sessions a week, mostly in the evenings --- "Guess what, honey? Not only am I going to be in the studio in another JamKazam session, you can't watch tv or use your computer while I'm out there! How about knitting? You could knit me something [runs away]".

Any suggestions on a router that won't get me living in the garage? Thanks again...

>>>
Another router/modem is hardly gonna do any good when your household is netflixing, gaming a/o up-/downloading at the same time you're trying to do anything with online audio. There will always be 'noise' = jitter = latency.
A 'sneaky' local QoS shaping (and bandwidth pools), giving your UDP traffic priority could help some, but don't expect miracles.
'Having the road to yourself' and disabling/stopping all other network (LAN & inet) use is really the best(only?) key to success where congestion/noise/jitter is in play.

I hear you with the "household" though. A band friend of mine can't even get 2,5h a week for himself to play online - had to stop that collab.

I beg to differ. A properly designed router will help greatly. There are several choices that I personally have experience with. The best, IMHO, is IQrouter, designed specifically to help in this regard. It's very affordable and easy to setup to allow the highest priority to your outgoing realtime audio packets. A second option is to use the openWRT router software on your existing router (if it's supported). You can check their site for a list. Thirdly, routers from ASUS have very robust QoS abilities and you can easily assign bandwidth and protocol priorities to specific devices. Also, any Windows PC Jamkazam users can readily create a QoS policy on their machine to mark all outgoing Jamkazam UDP packets as high priority (think VOIP). This will place them ahead of normal incoming traffic in your QoS-enabled router.
So there's a lot you can easily and affordably do.

In your particular case, I'd consider giving them back their rented modem/router and purchasing your own DOCSIS 3.x modem and an IQrouter. Total cost around $200 and will pay for itself in a year or so depending on the rental amount you're currently paying.

>>>
No problem Stuart. We don't have to agree on everything. (or anything really ;-))
Pls do consider the "... when ..." part in my first sentence. (nothing 'technical' will 'solve' that)
D./

Fair enough In my case, using an IQrouter, my family can now do whatever they like on the Internet while I'm Jamkazaming and things are smooth. None of this can help the inevitable Internet latency itself if course. But at least you won't be adding to the burden at your end.

[Dimitri Muskens]

Thanks, Stuart... your advice should go over really well in the household since I'm doing 3-4 JK sessions a week, mostly in the evenings --- "Guess what, honey? Not only am I going to be in the studio in another JamKazam session, you can't watch tv or use your computer while I'm out there! How about knitting? You could knit me something [runs away]".

Any suggestions on a router that won't get me living in the garage? Thanks again...

>>>
Another router/modem is hardly gonna do any good when your household is netflixing, gaming a/o up-/downloading at the same time you're trying to do anything with online audio. There will always be 'noise' = jitter = latency.
A 'sneaky' local QoS shaping (and bandwidth pools), giving your UDP traffic priority could help some, but don't expect miracles.
'Having the road to yourself' and disabling/stopping all other network (LAN & inet) use is really the best(only?) key to success where congestion/noise/jitter is in play.

I hear you with the "household" though. A band friend of mine can't even get 2,5h a week for himself to play online - had to stop that collab.

I beg to differ. A properly designed router will help greatly. There are several choices that I personally have experience with. The best, IMHO, is IQrouter, designed specifically to help in this regard. It's very affordable and easy to setup to allow the highest priority to your outgoing realtime audio packets. A second option is to use the openWRT router software on your existing router (if it's supported). You can check their site for a list. Thirdly, routers from ASUS have very robust QoS abilities and you can easily assign bandwidth and protocol priorities to specific devices. Also, any Windows PC Jamkazam users can readily create a QoS policy on their machine to mark all outgoing Jamkazam UDP packets as high priority (think VOIP). This will place them ahead of normal incoming traffic in your QoS-enabled router.
So there's a lot you can easily and affordably do.

In your particular case, I'd consider giving them back their rented modem/router and purchasing your own DOCSIS 3.x modem and an IQrouter. Total cost around $200 and will pay for itself in a year or so depending on the rental amount you're currently paying.

>>>
No problem Stuart. We don't have to agree on everything. (or anything really ;-))
Pls do consider the "... when ..." part in my first sentence. (nothing 'technical' will 'solve' that)
D./

Fair enough In my case, using an IQrouter, my family can now do whatever they like on the Internet while I'm Jamkazaming and things are smooth. None of this can help the inevitable Internet latency itself if course. But at least you won't be adding to the burden at your end.

>>>
Great that you found a workable modus. In these situations balance is important. I do assume the quality of your connection is playing a major part in this.

Please do bear in mind that the only thing you're shaping though is your LAN traffic. You have absolutely no control over what happens after your modem. You can tag priority bits to your (UDP-) data traffic to your heart's content but your ISP or any hop after that is just not going to honour them.

So, outside your LAN it is still just your data plan wrestling with whatever your modem is offering to be processed and whatever the DMZ is offering 'in return'.