Help! Timing With Drummer (yellow but need green)

[PicoDan]

Hello,

I am near Port Moody British Columbia Canada. I can never get any better than the yellow indicator on JamKazam, and that’s more or less OK when jamming with another guitarist / singer, but it’s simply not good enough to play with a drummer. Zlartibartfas says “manage your QoS settings, and setup port forwarding” but I do not know exactly how I should set this, see here https://forum.jamkazam.com/showthread.ph...6&pid=8125

I have been jamming with a local drummer (with good gear) and it’s always the same. It’s impossible over time for us to stay synchronized. It helps some if we use the JamKazam metronome, but even that is not good enough and I can feel his drums drifting over time. The drummer also can never get any better than the yellow indicator on JamKazam even though he’s upgraded ISP speeds, cable modems, routers, etc.

Also I have not adjusted the frame rate, we are both on the Gold Package, and we never enable video of any kind.

The tunes get most out of sync when I send the drummer a click with sequenced tracks (which I sing and play guitar to). I generate the click and the tracks from an entirely separate dedicated second laptop and mix it via the Behringer XENYX 1202FX Mixer referred to later on.

There are no other I/O tasks on our computers, there is no distortion or artifacts, and the session is not freezing or dropping out. We always make sure there is no other traffic on our home systems such as VoIP or other computers. I have looked at the status of open jam participants, and I noticed that a few of the participants have a green indicator, so clearly it can be done, and I am pretty sure that’s what we need to be able to get, or at the very least I should be able to get.

Please help us, we would be most appreciative!

Here is the gear I’m using:

Guitar > Line 6 Helix Floor > Behringer XENYX 1202FX Mixer…
AKG C420 Headset mic > TC Helicon VoiceLive 3 > Behringer XENYX 1202FX Mixer…

…Focusrite Scarlett 4i4 (3rd Gen)

Motorola MB8600 DOCSIS 3.1 Cable Modem > TP Link Archer C4000 Router > Cat 5 Cable > TP-Link UE300 Ethernet Adapter > ASUS VivoBook i7 / 16 GB RAM / 1 TB SSD / Win 11

Here is my ISP:

https://mysavvy.teksavvy.com
Cable 30 Unlimited (30Mbps / 5Mbps)

FYI, I tried Cable 500 Unlimited (500Mbps / 100Mbps) but it did not make any difference, the indicator stayed yellow, never green.

[Dimitri Muskens]

>>>
Hi there,

You say you can "never" get better than 'yellow'.
Is 'never' always with the same peer? (your drummer), or with anyone/in any session?
If the latter, first point of attack would be your side of the equation.
You can have all the gear in the world and a massive down- & upload but just one little thing in the chain can ruin your experience.
Did you check (both) your signal(s)? Bandwidth is one thing but it also has to be 'clean' - meaning (very) little noise/jitter.

Cable internet (DOCSIS) is known to possibly have more jitter than e.g. #DSL or fiber.
There are several sites/apps that will tell you what the latency & jitter on your connection is.

If you'd want a 'live' tech help chat, you could visit 'Terry's Technical Help' session on Thursdays. Organized by Terry Moir (CAN), a volunteer/user on JamKazam.

[PicoDan]

Thank you most kindly for responding Dimitri, and I look forward to your thoughtful replies!

1. You say you can "never" get better than 'yellow'. Is 'never' always with the same peer? (your drummer), or with anyone/in any session? --- Using Private Session, it's always been yellow at my end and their end with the three separate people I have jammed with. Each of the three people have great gear and good knowledge to very good knowledge of computer setups. With Public Session, I have noticed that a few (very few in fact) of the participants have a green indicator. I have not joined any Public Sessions.

2. You can have all the gear in the world and a massive down & upload but just one little thing in the chain can ruin your experience. --- Yes I understand that gear is only part of the question, however none of three of us have ever been able to get green status.

3. Did you check (both) your signal(s)? Bandwidth is one thing but it also has to be 'clean' meaning (very) little noise/jitter. --- If you are asking if I have viewed the various JamKazam parameters in real time, then the answer is yes (as have my three other Private Session friends). As mentioned, it's always been yellow at my end, and it's always been yellow at their ends. Each of the three people and I have always had rather similar numbers, no matter what we do with upgrading gear or ISP speeds, although I for one cannot tell you for sure what would constitute really good numbers versus reasonably good numbers.

4. Cable internet (DOCSIS) is known to possibly have more jitter than e.g. #DSL or fiber. --- If true, it would seem there's not much that I can do about it and all three of the people I have had Private Sessions with suffer the same fate (no better than the yellow indicator). Or am I wrong here and is there a solution? Note that one of the three people I have had Private Sessions with simply played guitar and it was acceptable. The problem, as I have mentioned, arises most noticeably, when going for the timing precision required for playing with a live drummer. I may be able to switch to fibre (not sure about the cost and complexity because it is not terminated at my house) however at least some of the three people I have played with via Private Session do not have this option and must use a cable modem (at least that's my understanding as I am not an expert on these matters). In any case, since most people do not have fibre, me switching to fiber (if indeed I can) seems of questionable value, if I am only one of very few on fibre.

5. There are several sites/apps that will tell you what the latency & jitter on your connection is. --- I have tried the usual online speed tests, and some of them include latency, but none of the online tests I've used measured jitter (of course JamKazam does measure jitter, and as I have said, all four of us get pretty much the same numbers all the time, for all parameters and it's with live drumming that I notice the problems). The latency numbers seem fine at about 9ms to 12ms, however as discussed I do not know exactly what would be really good numbers for latency, except to say that using Private Session, with the three separate people, all our numbers have pretty much always been very similar.

5. If you'd want a 'live' tech help chat, you could visit 'Terry's Technical Help' session on Thursdays. Organized by Terry Moir (CAN), a volunteer/user on JamKazam. --- Is this a Public Session? By "CAN" do you mean he is Canadian? Does Terry manage to get a green indicator without any problems? Does Terry use a cable modem? Where is Terry located? I ask all this because if he lives in an area with better internet access (such as downtown Vancouver, British Columbia) and/or he uses fibre, then I am not sure how applicable his experiences would be to us three living in residential zones in the Lower Mainland of British Columbia. None of us three live in a city center area such as downtown Vancouver, British Columbia.

[PicoDan]

I do hope some thoughtful experienced JamKazamer will respond to my plea for assistance! There must be something that can be done so that all four of us (in pairs, not all four at the same time) can move to the green?

Surely it can't be any single one of us that has some specific problem, given our overall abilities with computers, and gear and the fact that the main indicator is always yellow and never gets to green no matter what any of us do with gear or parameter adjustments or ISP speeds?

As mentioned, the yellow indicator is adequate for two people if just singing and playing guitar, but not precise enough for drums, even if using the JamKazam metronome, however I expect it would be better if at least one of us could get the main indicator to go green.

Help!

[Zlartibartfast]

I was using DOCSIS 3.0 cable service at my previous residence - it was fine. I now have fiber optic to the premise, which is a bit better in terms of jitter. However, cable service is typically adequate. The big bug-a-boo here is that all jitter is cumulative. The jitter that may be from your computer/interface added to jitter from the network connection added to the same factors from everyone in the session can make things ugly pretty quick.

Re: network tests - http://www.dslreports.com/speedtest - will provide info about ping times and "bufferbloat" (which is an issue that you have limited control of).

in Terminal, run this command:
MacBook-Air:~ yournamehere$ ping 8.8.8.8 -t 30
(you are pinging a free DNS server from Google)

here's the results from my Macbook (on WiFi):
--- 8.8.8.8 ping statistics ---
30 packets transmitted, 29 packets received, 3.3% packet loss
round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 20.658/29.151/132.108/22.084 ms

you can see the effects of extreme jitter, expressed as the stddev value. You can also see that 1 out of 30 packets never made it back to me. If you get numbers like this, then you can pretty much forget about using JamKazam on that computer (the one I use is a Mac Mini with integrated ethernet, not this Air).

And I wonder why your network adapter is an external one - the laptop doesn't have one built-in? this is definitely something to look into. USB (assuming it's USB) performance can be all over the map. Drivers matter, firmware revisions matter, it even matters which port you plug into because there's a pecking order in the USB hierarchy (with the USB host controller being 1, and then other devices down the line).

Anyway the point is there are lots of pieces to the puzzle. I don't think your cable modem is a source of trouble, but then how many connections are sharing your node? if you live in apartment where most tenants are on cable service, you're sharing your internet node with most if not al of them (not a bandwidth issue here - a latency issue).

Next time you're looking a performance info in a session, look to see the details of where the yellow indicators are showing up. CPU? Device (audio I/O) latency? network jitter?

Re: the metronome issue - the JK click is "closest" to the "middle of the room", and therefore *should* be heard at about the same time for all session players. If one player is "hosting" the click, that's likely to be heard sooner by the host that other members of the session. So using the JK metrnome *should* have better results.

Finally, Jamkazam can either be peer-to-peer (the original way) or ARS (the new way) I found that ager the ARS system went online, I was ale to jam in a 3 piece session where one member was over 900 miles away on fairly crappy internet service, and the other member was about a mile from my house. This had not been possible using the P2P network option in Jamkazam.

I'm not a doctor, but I play one on TV ;-}

[PicoDan]

Thank you so much for responding Zlartibartfast. I have not yet had time to check out everything you've mentioned, nor properly respond back to you, but I will in the next few days, and I hope to hear back from you then. In meantime, I'll leave you with a quote from Bones: "I'm a doctor, not a database."

[Dimitri Muskens]

Thank you so much for responding Zlartibartfast.  I have not yet had time to check out everything you've mentioned, nor properly respond back to you, but I will in the next few days, and I hope to hear back from you then.  In meantime, I'll leave you with a quote from Bones: "I'm a doctor, not a database."

>>>
Hi PicoDan,

Will you meet me in a session on JKz so we can have a look at your numbers/settings and a chat about possible improvements?

D./

NB - it really doesn't matter where someone trying to help you is located - like you asked about Terry Moir(?) - to be able to tell if something is not up to par in your basic setup.

NB2 - even on DOCSIS in the past, I have been able to get good ('green') results - so let's talk. It won't get worse ... .

[PicoDan]

Hello Dimitri,

Sure, I would be more than pleased to meet any time, and any day you like on JamKazam! I live in the Lower Mainland of British Columbia, Canada so I am on Pacific Standard Time and the date is Friday, February 11, 2022 as I write this. The only booking time that would be difficult is February 15th in the day, but other than that I am 100% free.

I am not sure where you are located, or what time zone you are in, or when it would be best for you, but to maintain reasonable security, I have PM'd you my contact information and we can carry on from there.

Thank you so much Dimitri, and I look forward to being on JamKazam with you!

[MaxJeez99]

Hi PicoDan and Dimitri.

I am said drummer.
Had same issues as PicoDan with yellow and red being limited to the "Jitter Lights". (good band name!)
I am running on Shaw's "Fibre+" DOCSIS, 1 gig down, 100 Mb/s up.  Their speed test just now comes back 495/108.  (I thinks it's a pre-recorded GIF lol)
ZEDi10FX AI/ 4 channel mixing board via USB.
Latency and all other dots besides Jitter are green so not the problem?  

Anyway, PicoDan had great success with Dimitri so if you could spare another few minutes for a quick consult it would be most appreciated.

Running a ping test (to google) on my PC generated this info:
"Ping statistics for "moron's_computer"
Packets: Sent = 92, Received = 92, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 12ms, Maximum = 20ms, Average = 13ms"

Are those round trip times a bit high?

Also planning on joining Terry's Technical Help.

Thanks again for your help.

[Dimitri Muskens]

Hi PicoDan and Dimitri.

I am said drummer.
Had same issues as PicoDan with yellow and red being limited to the "Jitter Lights". (good band name!)
<...>

Also planning on joining Terry's Technical Help.

Thanks again for your help.

Hi 'Max',
We could do a similar 'meet 'n greet' in a JKz session.
Let me know if and when. (if same timezone as Daniel, we're 9hrs apart - later here)

D./