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+--- Thread: I had a dream..... (/showthread.php?tid=1196)
I had a dream..... - RAV33 - 06-18-2020
I had a dream .
I dreamed of opening Jamkazam and realizing that all users had correctly updated their profile and it was possible to immediately see in which part of the world they lived and which instrument they played. I dreamed that it was possible to identify the session to enter knowing already before that there were no people from the other end of the world with a total latency of 80-100-200 ms or others playing the same instrument (especially if bass or drums). I dreamed that all users had now understood that it is essential to have an audio interface with a latency possibly not exceeding 10 ms (there are many on the market also very cheap) and that you cannot connect if you have an internet connection from the 90s or WiFi. I dreamed that all users avoided entering sessions where the majority of the musicians were from another continent because they understood that in these cases there is no possibility of having acceptable latencies and one can only play in an uncoordinated way. I dreamed that users had understood that entering a session that is going well by bringing in their own 80-100-200 ms of delay can only destroy it by increasing all the latencies of others musicians and also adding annoying noises. I dreamed that everyone understood that sessions with 12 people cannot be done. In short, I dreamed that all users of this wonderful program called Jamkazam committed themselves to rational and correct behavior in everyone's interest.
… .. Then I woke up….
RE: I had a dream..... - Hans Peter Augustesen - 06-18-2020
I had such a dream, too.
But it wasn't that big, just a small one ...
Some people have decent sessions between the continents - I'll just add.
7 is the (by JamKazam) recommended maximum in a session (technically).
You "woke up" ...
Did you give up too?
RE: I had a dream..... - Chris Frost - 06-19-2020
(06-18-2020, 09:32 PM)Hans Peter Augustesen Wrote: I had such a dream, too.
But it wasn't that big, just a small one ...
Some people have decent sessions between the continents - I'll just add.
7 is the recommended maximum in a session (technically).
You "woke up" ...
Did you give up too?
Very good ... could I add 'and that people reaslied that a reported latency of 0.0ms was unlikely to be accurate - so stopped bragging about it' :-)
RE: I had a dream..... - RAV33 - 06-20-2020
Nobody demands zero latency. To play very well together with others, a "yellow" total latency is enough. And, if you live in the same continent (I wrote continent not nation), a simple and cheap interface and a good internet connection are almost always sufficient. And this would be within everyone's reach. To play with Jamkazam one must understand that the interface and the internet connection are even more important than the quality of the musical instrument (I'm exaggerating just to reiterate the concept
....).
RE: I had a dream..... - Hans Peter Augustesen - 06-20-2020
Yes, nobody demands zero latency, or just a few. It will never be possible. We can only dream about it - but that is a waste of time ...
JamKazam cannot directly measure the latency of certain audio interfaces.
For example Scarlett 2i2 Gen2.
These audio interfaces appear to have a latency of 0 milliseconds.
In reality, the latency is 5-7 milliseconds.
That's what Chris Frost writes about, I would think.
Bragging about it is then a misunderstanding and ridiculous, yes ...
RE: I had a dream..... - RAV33 - 06-20-2020
I fully agree with you and Chris Frost. There are no "zero latency" interfaces and even if they existed they would not be necessary. In fact, I wrote that all interfaces with their own latency below 10 ms are fine and there are also many very chip available. For example, like many others, I own a Behringer UMC202HD which is inexpensive and which (according to Jamkazam) has a latency of 4.2 ms. Aren't they really 4.2 but 6-8 ms? It's okay anyway. But when I enter a session and check the latency of the other musicians I sometimes see 20-30 ms audio gear latency. But what do they use? How did they connect the musical instrument to the PC? Have they not understood that in this way it cannot work?
And then there is the internet connection. There are the very high values of those who live in another continent that are inevitable for physical reasons (my personal opinion is that to date there are still no technological conditions to play on the net when the distances are excessive and that it would be better in most cases to avoid it. it's just my opinion). But if you live in the same continent, even in different countries, you can keep total latency within values that create the conditions for playing in a realistic way. It is not so difficult to remain in the "yellow" range (35 ms) . There is no need to be with a "green" total latency (it is very very rare). To do this you just need a modern internet connection. There is no need for a super connection. A normal one is enough ... that works well (strictly with LAN cable!). But it seems that many have not yet understood it.
Who of you usually plays in a band could go to rehearsals without their musical instrument? Absolutely not . It's clear.
For the same reason, those who want to play in Jamkazam must have the technology to have an acceptable total latency because the interface and internet connection are one with the musical instrument. If you want to play on the net they are an inseparable part of your musical instrument.
It is not mandatory to play in Jamkazam. You may not do it, but if you want to do it, put yourself in a position to do it well. This is just my opinion. But maybe I'm wrong ... Best regards friends.
RE: I had a dream..... - GDJ - 06-20-2020
Just chiming in. There is also a distinction to me made about Zero Latency Monitoring. For instance, I own a couple of MOTU interfaces and they are Zero Latency Monitoring. This is because the GUI application CueMix allows accesses to control of the hardware features of the interface. Allowing me to also configure and use it as a stand alone mixer - a straight play-through device, not requiring a computer (pretty handy). I suspect what I refer to as Zero Latency Monitoring is likely Direct Monitoring on other AIs. The early JamKazam tutorial videos refer to Direct Monitoring and when I was getting my MOTU gear setup for JamKazm, i was pulling my hair out trying to figure out where the Direct Monitoring control is on my MOTU!. In CueMix Fx I can mute the Outputs which in effect, is the direct monitoring control. The Driver still passes the audio from the MOTU to JamKazam. These interfaces work nicely. And, my hair is finally growing back.
Safe to say, i think the big contributing factor is the Driver. Overall, my AI latency is 99 percent in the Green, but flickers over to Yellow for a second or two intermittently. But it's in the low single digits, if i recall off hand. like 1 or 2ms
For the UMC202HD, I have a friend on a Mac with this same AI, i was assisting them with getting setup and was surprised when they reported back saying, it's always in the Yellow with the AI. I was even more surprised when we could not find a Driver for it, from behringer's site. Then we learned, there is no 3rd party driver for it on the Mac. And, I didn't see any Firmware updates. Nonetheless, still, I think it's a handy descent interface and good enough to get things going. He put a mixer in front of it to add 2 mics and 2 instruments. We are both in California in the Yellow with Internet latency. We're having fun. I'm not suggesting he go out and purchase another AI at this point unless/until we see a marked improvement in the infrastructure to bring down the Internet Latency. This is the real bottle-neck, regardless of what AI you're going to throw at JK. I'm keeping watch on StarLink, which i think is going into beta, with the objective of bringing down latency.
Let's face it, I think there are enough musicians on the planet where we should have our separate high spead network, just for musicians. No shared lines. lol
RE: I had a dream..... - Hans Peter Augustesen - 06-20-2020
Behringer UMC 202HD should give a latency at 4.2 milliseconds. In Windows, that is ...
And the same for UMC 404HD.
And UMC 404, which I am using for the moment - 4.17 ms exactly
LATENCY, mostly TOTAL LATENCY
> https://forum.jamkazam.com/showthread.php?tid=171
RE: I had a dream..... - RAV33 - 06-20-2020
You're right Hans Peter. The latency of the Behringer UMC 202 - 204 - 404 HD is 4.17 ms (4.20 ms in session) thanks to the specific driver for Windows that you download from their site. Behringer has not created a driver for MAC and they take advantage of the Mac Core Audio driver which is not specific and does not allow to go below 10 ms (for this reason it is always yellow). In summary it is not possible to get the best performance with these interfaces if you have the MAC, unless you create a Bootcamp partition and install Windows .
RE: I had a dream..... - GDJ - 06-20-2020
Hey Rav33. Good to know the additional info about the Core driver latency and, bootcamp option. Even for my MOTU which has it's own driver, i created a bootable OS X from an SSD just to have better system performance with my JK session. When i'm done, I reboot back to my regular OS version. One day, I may give WIN a shot, or the DAW method seems trendy too.