JamKazam Forums
Wednesday Dec 9th 7-9pm EST - Problems Abound - Printable Version

+- JamKazam Forums (https://forum.jamkazam.com)
+-- Forum: Jamkazam Forums (https://forum.jamkazam.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=1)
+--- Forum: Help with Live Jamming Sessions (https://forum.jamkazam.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=19)
+--- Thread: Wednesday Dec 9th 7-9pm EST - Problems Abound (/showthread.php?tid=1795)

Pages: 1 2

RE: Wednesday Dec 9th 7-9pm EST - Problems Abound - NANCYKNOP - 12-10-2020

(12-10-2020, 07:11 PM)StuartR Wrote:
(12-10-2020, 06:23 PM)NANCYKNOP Wrote:
(12-10-2020, 04:19 AM)GDJ Wrote: Just a heads up. Your mileage may vary.  I would be careful about making the generalization that JK is not ready for prime time. Your experience may not measure to everyone else.  I use JK 4 days a week mostly with the same folks. Things are very stable, no problems like you describe at all. Point being, what you experience does not speak for all. Secondly, while it’s a good idea to have the same session players using the same bit rate, do keep in mind frame rate actually has more to do with our own audio interface driver is talking to your audio interface hardware. However, if you are in the Red on your frame rate, it could yield distortion. My suggestion is, make sure all of your session attendees are using the same network settings > route > and one of the three options. My experience is, when EVERYONE in the session is on prefer lowest latency path, sound quality and stability is better. For what it’s worth, I have an 8 channel Interface and my regular Jamkazammers are all set to 192kp bit rate. The feedback with each other is nice and clear. I’ve been online since April and given the ups and down with the updates, some how we have been able to learn more about the app and an achieve a level of clarity in the session. Latency in April was difficult, but is now much better. Figure it out.
Can you tell us how to fine Network settings>route>3 choices?  We are trying to solve a problem with jitter queue.  Thank you.
(12-10-2020, 06:23 PM)NANCYKNOP Wrote:
(12-10-2020, 04:19 AM)GDJ Wrote: Just a heads up. Your mileage may vary.  I would be careful about making the generalization that JK is not ready for prime time. Your experience may not measure to everyone else.  I use JK 4 days a week mostly with the same folks. Things are very stable, no problems like you describe at all. Point being, what you experience does not speak for all. Secondly, while it’s a good idea to have the same session players using the same bit rate, do keep in mind frame rate actually has more to do with our own audio interface driver is talking to your audio interface hardware. However, if you are in the Red on your frame rate, it could yield distortion. My suggestion is, make sure all of your session attendees are using the same network settings > route > and one of the three options. My experience is, when EVERYONE in the session is on prefer lowest latency path, sound quality and stability is better. For what it’s worth, I have an 8 channel Interface and my regular Jamkazammers are all set to 192kp bit rate. The feedback with each other is nice and clear. I’ve been online since April and given the ups and down with the updates, some how we have been able to learn more about the app and an achieve a level of clarity in the session. Latency in April was difficult, but is now much better. Figure it out.
Can you tell us how to fine Network settings>route>3 choices?  We are trying to solve a problem with jitter queue.  Thank you.
Jitter is generally caused by congestion in the IP network. The congestion can occur either at the router interfaces or in your provider network. As a first step, check the routers of your session players for congestion: dslreports.com/speedtest and pay attention to the bufferbloat score of each one. A low grade (C,D,F) indicates your router can't reliably handle real-time data when it's under load. Make sure not one else is using that router while you're in a JK session.
Thank you, GDJ.  We are both rebooting routers, rebooting computers (Macs), turning off everything else, so no other router use.  We both have DSL lines, use ethernet.Data from FAST.com this morning:
 me:  Speed 7.1mbps  Latency unloaded 22ms   loaded 347ms  Upload speed 890kbps
 T:     Speed 8.3mbps  Latency unloaded 13ms   loaded 1.1s     Upload speed 5.9mbps
Each of us reading information about internet data from our own Jamkazam screen:
me:  total Latency  750ms    Jitter queue  288.4ms  Jitter 0.6,s
T:     total Latency   34ms     Jitter queue    2.9ms   Jitter  1.3ms
Hovering over the jitter queue, the box to the right indicated that the Jamkazam was buffering, causing increased latency of around 600ms of latency as I read it. 

Now my upload speed is up to 8.5mbps.  I'd talked to my service provider earlier and he switched my DSL line from "interleaving" to "fast."  This may affect our next attempt.

I see discussion of bufferbloat on this thread but do not know which of these numbers refers to bufferbloat.  The terminology is a challenge for newbies!  We will appreciate any insight you have.  We have managed two successful duet sessions, hope for more.  But today there was no sound communication, just growling.  We talked on cell phones and looked for information.  I am now assuming the links you mention are not on Jamkazam itself, but rather on your 8 channel interface. ??

RE: Wednesday Dec 9th 7-9pm EST - Problems Abound - SammerJammer - 12-10-2020

Enough of trying to blame the user. The customer (and that's what we'll be soon) isn't always wrong.

I, my session members, and friends have all had many successful sessions over the preceding months at regular times in our regular households with our regular demands on our internet access without issue. Using the same equipment within the same scearious too ften as of late have resulted in bad experiences. These problems are not isolated and not infrequent.


If it is indeed the case (it isn't) that nobody's network setup is capable of running with JamKazam without a slew of restrictions then that is a different problem (for JK as well as us) completely - the system must be able to deal with common household topologies.

I am quite willing to bet that a vast majority of issues over the past couple of months are due to new audio and network schemes and features introduced by JamKazam. It is quite clear when things go to sh*t following a release. It's also quite clear when JK pushes out several releases within a matter of days, sometimes more than one a day, that some of those releases were problematic. SaaS/PaaS is a tricky place to operate but ultimately you must provide consistent and reliable service to customer.

RE: Wednesday Dec 9th 7-9pm EST - Problems Abound - NANCYKNOP - 12-10-2020

We will keep trying to adjust. The world needs simultaneous singing/playing/jamming.

RE: Wednesday Dec 9th 7-9pm EST - Problems Abound - StuartR - 12-10-2020

(12-10-2020, 07:43 PM)NANCYKNOP Wrote:
(12-10-2020, 07:11 PM)StuartR Wrote:
(12-10-2020, 06:23 PM)NANCYKNOP Wrote:
(12-10-2020, 04:19 AM)GDJ Wrote: Just a heads up. Your mileage may vary.  I would be careful about making the generalization that JK is not ready for prime time. Your experience may not measure to everyone else.  I use JK 4 days a week mostly with the same folks. Things are very stable, no problems like you describe at all. Point being, what you experience does not speak for all. Secondly, while it’s a good idea to have the same session players using the same bit rate, do keep in mind frame rate actually has more to do with our own audio interface driver is talking to your audio interface hardware. However, if you are in the Red on your frame rate, it could yield distortion. My suggestion is, make sure all of your session attendees are using the same network settings > route > and one of the three options. My experience is, when EVERYONE in the session is on prefer lowest latency path, sound quality and stability is better. For what it’s worth, I have an 8 channel Interface and my regular Jamkazammers are all set to 192kp bit rate. The feedback with each other is nice and clear. I’ve been online since April and given the ups and down with the updates, some how we have been able to learn more about the app and an achieve a level of clarity in the session. Latency in April was difficult, but is now much better. Figure it out.
Can you tell us how to fine Network settings>route>3 choices?  We are trying to solve a problem with jitter queue.  Thank you.
(12-10-2020, 06:23 PM)NANCYKNOP Wrote:
(12-10-2020, 04:19 AM)GDJ Wrote: Just a heads up. Your mileage may vary.  I would be careful about making the generalization that JK is not ready for prime time. Your experience may not measure to everyone else.  I use JK 4 days a week mostly with the same folks. Things are very stable, no problems like you describe at all. Point being, what you experience does not speak for all. Secondly, while it’s a good idea to have the same session players using the same bit rate, do keep in mind frame rate actually has more to do with our own audio interface driver is talking to your audio interface hardware. However, if you are in the Red on your frame rate, it could yield distortion. My suggestion is, make sure all of your session attendees are using the same network settings > route > and one of the three options. My experience is, when EVERYONE in the session is on prefer lowest latency path, sound quality and stability is better. For what it’s worth, I have an 8 channel Interface and my regular Jamkazammers are all set to 192kp bit rate. The feedback with each other is nice and clear. I’ve been online since April and given the ups and down with the updates, some how we have been able to learn more about the app and an achieve a level of clarity in the session. Latency in April was difficult, but is now much better. Figure it out.
Can you tell us how to fine Network settings>route>3 choices?  We are trying to solve a problem with jitter queue.  Thank you.
Jitter is generally caused by congestion in the IP network. The congestion can occur either at the router interfaces or in your provider network. As a first step, check the routers of your session players for congestion: dslreports.com/speedtest and pay attention to the bufferbloat score of each one. A low grade (C,D,F) indicates your router can't reliably handle real-time data when it's under load. Make sure not one else is using that router while you're in a JK session.
Thank you, GDJ.  We are both rebooting routers, rebooting computers (Macs), turning off everything else, so no other router use.  We both have DSL lines, use ethernet.Data from FAST.com this morning:
 me:  Speed 7.1mbps  Latency unloaded 22ms   loaded 347ms  Upload speed 890kbps
 T:     Speed 8.3mbps  Latency unloaded 13ms   loaded 1.1s     Upload speed 5.9mbps
Each of us reading information about internet data from our own Jamkazam screen:
me:  total Latency  750ms    Jitter queue  288.4ms  Jitter 0.6,s
T:     total Latency   34ms     Jitter queue    2.9ms   Jitter  1.3ms
Hovering over the jitter queue, the box to the right indicated that the Jamkazam was buffering, causing increased latency of around 600ms of latency as I read it. 

Now my upload speed is up to 8.5mbps.  I'd talked to my service provider earlier and he switched my DSL line from "interleaving" to "fast."  This may affect our next attempt.

I see discussion of bufferbloat on this thread but do not know which of these numbers refers to bufferbloat.  The terminology is a challenge for newbies!  We will appreciate any insight you have.  We have managed two successful duet sessions, hope for more.  But today there was no sound communication, just growling.  We talked on cell phones and looked for information.  I am now assuming the links you mention are not on Jamkazam itself, but rather on your 8 channel interface. ??
The values from the Loaded latency test show your latency when your router is under load. The two examples you gave show you may indeed have bufferbloat. Try the definitive test at dslreports.com/speedtest to be sure.

RE: Wednesday Dec 9th 7-9pm EST - Problems Abound - GDJ - 12-11-2020

I will be hosting my Jam session tonight, Thursday 12/10, and be on the lookout for the CPU usage and audio issues. Good to know

One thing i think that separates me form the average JamKazam user, is how i use it. I have an older MacMini 2015 running High Sierra. I noticed when starting to use JK in April, it was using a lot of CPU and competing with a lot of my normal outbound IP traffic. What to do.

I created an SSD boot disk for my JK session so full CPU resources are dedicated to JK. A couple people I jam with regularly have gone this route and the overall performance is always better, and i don't experience issues like others do. I actually wrote about it here:

https://forum.jamkazam.com/showthread.php?tid=849&highlight=Boot+Drive

Having said this, just because I don't have a problem others may have is unfair of me to suggests you're doing something wrong. I get it. And, looks like based on the amount of posting for this, something is up. I am not suggesting a boot disc is your solution either. Rather, I will be monitoring CPU tonight be observant of audio issues in the session, and report back..

Thanks,

Update 12/12

I added my comments to

Just a follow-up. I compared my CPU processing percentage for the most recent build referred to in this post. It does appear to be slightly higher by 10 percent, compared to the previous version.

The person I was jamming with had a low 4% CPU processing and is using a faster processor with his new computer. I am using a 2015 MacMini and it is normal for it to process at 30%. But this latest build had it at 40% +. Since I always backup the previous version before allowing JK to update the app, i was able to roll-back to make the comparison. Next year I will be getting a new M1 Mac and expect my numbers to come down.

As for performance stability with the high running CPU, personally I'm not hearing or experiencing anything different. And, I do not necessarily equate CPU with Latency issues.

From time to time, I do re-level everything in JK, every few months. I wish JK would provide in-depth instructions about using the powermixer and understanding the track slider controls and booster gain settings. They include compression and threshold settings which affect your internal sounds. Changing these settings will not affect how others hear you. I have learned about them through a trial and error process.